They may not understand the repercussions because they don't have the wisdom that comes with age and life experience to understand. The fact is they made the choice themselves and for you to blame him for their choices makes no sense to me. To assume that they don't understand when you have no knowledge of that in reality is really not fair either. I guess it's all in the way you look at the work. Some people look and see negative things. I personally look and see beauty and art. I don't see porn or anything negative because I believe that the human body is a beautiful work of Art and that the creator really went above and beyond the call of duty when he made the female form.
I'm not demeaning the women at all. I'm saying they are often misinformed as to what their role is, especially when it comes to nude modelling. there is a kind of fantasy that goes with this sort of thing. You have no idea until you've been there. The photographer tells you all kinds of things. Like how liberating it can be. How you should embrace your sexuality. How it's a key part of human nature and you shouldn't be ashamed. They say whatever they have to say to get your clothes off. I know.
The fact he claims these employers are sexually exploiting women by firing them is a serious charge. There is nothing sexually exploitative about firing a person because they took nude photographs and had them posted all over the internet. If the employer then forced these models to perform sexual acts with with either themselves or potential clients in order to remain employed, then it would be sexual exploitation.
Scouting young women and paying them money to model for him for the express purpose of turning them into objects of lust for his fanbase is a form of sexual exploitation. You can't possibly tell me that every single one of these models came to him begging him to take naked pictures of them. He states quite adamantly that these women perform a service by being sexual objects for men. Does he tell them that before they sign any papers, or agree to model for him? Of course, not. Not all of the women who do this kind of thing mind. But some of them do. Most of them have no idea what they're getting themselves into when they pose for these pictures. They assume it's easy money. That no one will ever see them. They don't understand what the repercussions will be until it's too late. If they came to him and asked him to take them down, do you think he would? Of course, not. He paid them for a service. He treats them like virtual whores. That's the truth. If you don't believe me, watch his video and read his responses to other people.
let me start of by saying that I was going to leave this alone, but then I read it again and I can't help but point out something..
1) you don't know if I've been there or not
2)then you both are claiming something which can be considered a serious charge, you say he is exploiting them, he says they are exploiting them.
3) Some see this as art, whether you can understand that or not, not everyone see this as porn. This can be evidenced by the fact that there are numerous female art appreciaters buying and watching the art, sometimes even creating it themselves. (Scroll downside and you'll see Rockstarvanity)
4)It isn't exploitation, they get paid for a service they agreed upon, probably signed papers for too and I assume are of legal age... none of this reads sexual exploitation, the models should be able to decide for themselves whether they want to do this and what the consequences are. If they do not know this, you can't blaim someone else for anothers stupidity/naivity/ignorance. Also ''You can't possibly tell me that every single one of these models came to him begging him to take naked pictures of them.'' I said no such thing.
5) again you say most of them, you don't know that, you haven't met ''most of them''. If you know ''some of them'' who do mind, don't project their experiences (or yours if that's the case) on all the others... not everyone has the same experiences.
6) (''He states quite adamantly'' )haven't seen that statement in regards to his own work, link me to where you see this, otherwise Ill assume this is another assumption you made.
7) You don't know if he tells them that or not before they sign any papers or agree to model before him, another assumption.
8) you don't know if they don't know where they get in to, nor do you know if they assume it's easy money or that no one will ever see them. You don't know if they don't know what the repercussions are.
9) If they signed or consented into taking the pictures he has no legal obligation to remove them if they ask. Unless did so under false pretenses. He paid them for a service, if someone does a commercial add and signed papers for it, the commercial won't be taken down either.
10) That he treats them like virtual whores is not a truth, it's your (flawed) opinion (Dictionary.com [link] disagrees with you). Infact the only one who called them that yet is you. I have seen the video and did not see any responses made by him except for the one where he says which program he used.
11) Your whole post consist of assumptions, it could be that you (or someone close) experienced exploitation and I am sorry if that's the case. Still it doesn't mean that every photographer is out to do the same thing, nor that every model experiences and feels the same way.
PLEASE ESPECIALLY READ THIS: In the future, I'd encourage you to seek facts and evidence to strengthen your argument, so it's a viable one, and you are not simply attacking someone for something they may or may not have done. I don't take lightly to stuff like that becuase it has caused great suffering in the world. Corrupt justice systems sending innocent people to jail or to their deaths, so-called facts which are not really facts that caused suffering in the forms of lobotomy or the Jew prosecution in WW2.
There many more examples, but I think I explained the seriousness of this and hope you understand.
Very well put sir... I was going to say something to this person, but I think you've said everything I could hope to X)
Although, I don't think using the Holocaust as an example here was the best idea, but I do understand what you're getting at with it. But it wasn't so much made-up facts that led to it. I think it was more jealousy. No Jew (I may be wrong, but if there were, I think they were few and far between) was living on the streets, most -- if not all -- bank owners in Germany were Jewish (again, might be wrong on that one), and this lead to a deep-seated jealousy of them, which was easy for someone to exploit.
... Ironically, I think that little off-topic last paragraph of mine actually brings up a relevant point. It would honestly not surprise me in the slightest if ~rumikoholic, and many of those who are so against erotic art that they feel the need to constantly battle it, are actually just jealous of the models, because these 'haters' if you will, are not as comfortable with themselves to do the same thing.
Even though some of you have valid points (not the 'feminists', god no), none of you have seemed to consider the fact that tons of his models are well-known, professional nude (/ fetish) models. These are women who have been working in the industry, for fun, for years now. And some of you dare to claim they are being exploited? Since when is doing what you like (and getting paid for it) called exploitation? Since when can a woman not simply do what she wants, without being labelled as a poor young woman who should be protected from herself? I don't know, but that sounds a lot more offensive than what you are accusing this artist of.
Long story short, most of you have NO IDEA what you are talking about. Also, in this modern day and age of internet, smartphones and whatnot, even beginning models need less and less protection from 'perverts' or fake photographers who will try to exploit them, since word travels fast and references can easily be found. What these women need protection from is people like you lot, who claim to want nothing but the utmost freedom for every human being, but are simply saying so to cover up the fact that they're the most self-centered assholes on the planet. Total freedom comes at a cost, one mans freedom can take away that of another. That's why we all live by rules based upon consensus. We don't print pornography in children's magazines just like we don't print biblical quotes on our tax papers. Everything has an allotted place, so that almost everyone can enjoy more or less equal amounts of freedom.
Great Video. I think it`s silly how some people can see models on pictures. Like ... dude, this are in 99% cute, nice, and really funny girls ... not only nice body. And I also have some female friends that pose to nude pictures, for me it`s no problem, but a lot of people think, that if someone show body on pictures that make them slutty or sth. Like ... as a guy i can be tagged on facebook in photos from parties, when i give lecture on university, when i take pictures of girls, and so on ... and nobody tells me anything about it. But probably if girl would have naked picture somewhere on web, she would be fired from certain jobs ... and yes, I agree that if you own company then you can do there whatever you think profit you most ... but people should be more open minded. If You pose to nude pictures that only means, that you like your body ... but that dosent`t mean, that you can`t be in the same time a great teacher, or amazing bussines manager Some teachers that i saw in my life (and i saw a lot) ... dude, in one moment i would change them for a nude model with better knowledge in subject that they should teach, becouse kids as far as i know shouldn`t watch pictures of naked people (in DA nude categories afaik is 18+), but for sure they should have teachers that know what they do
First off, I believe that erotic models should be treated with the same respect that we offer everybody else.
That said, I also believe that a nude model must offer the same respect to the people who dislike commercial nudity.
Stefan seems to imply that modelling nude is a job like baking bread. It is not, for the simple reason that there is no taboo on bread, but there is one on nudity. You can now get all upset and scream that there must not be a taboo on nudity, that nudity is "natural" (whatever natural means for people that consider themselves to be not animals), etc. The fact remains, and you cannot deny this simple truth, that no-one objects to bread while nudity is offensive to a large percentage of people in our culture.
Can you treat these people with the same respect that you expect them to extend towards you? Can you accept that they believe, from the depth of their hearts, that nudity is evil?
Because, as soon as you ridicule these beliefs and those people, you have lost your own right to be treated respectfully.
Now, if your mind is capable of logic thinking and you have followed my argument to this point, from the respect that the nude model must extend to her employee and his opinion of nudity and nude imagery if she expects his respect towards herself, follows that she also must respect his wish not to work with her.
There are certain standards that someone working at a certain job has to fulfill. I am heavily tattooed, but I am perfectly in harmony with the fact that I cannot work at a bank counter with these markings. And not because I don't want that job anyway, but because I respect -- and respect has to go both ways! --, I respect that the owner of the bank has formulated for himself what his company stands for, and it is self-evident for me that everybody working in his company must stand behind this concept. You may dislike what banks stand for and how they operate, but just as the bank owner has to respect a nude model, a nude model has to respect the bank owner. And that means, that she must accept her dismissal, if it is communicated in a civilised manner and comes with terms that are humane.
Nude models that have been dismissed from jobs have all (to my knowledge) held jobs that are part of the public face of a company or where the nude model works with children. The company owner has the right to decide what the face of his company should look like and of course parents have the right to expect the teachers of their children to represent the values that they want to communicate to them. No-one has the right to aks parents to accept a teacher that they don't want for their children. And the reasons don't matter. They are the parent's children, not the theacher's.
I am often deeply troubled by the double standards that people enjoying nude photography have. They demand respect, but they are unable to grant it themselves.
God, you are a moron. And I say this with the deepest respect.
What if I AM deeply offended by bread? And although people would tell me to "...stop acting so fucking ridiculous!" I just couldn't get over it, and decided to go to a bakery, where to my dismay I saw my secretary buying a loaf of the hellish whole wheat! Surely I should fire her on that basis. No, that is utterly ridiculous. Unless somebody would actively throw her nude pics (or anything of the sort) in your face all the time, you can not blame her for YOUR seeking it out. Unless you haven't noticed, you should know that these kinds of images are not usually used as profile pics on for example facebook, or as Christmas greeting cards. You'd have to actively seek them out. Your bad.
You have a self-centered, unrealistic view of the world and can apparently not fathom how co-existence with other beings can actually work in the long run.
Fight Against Sexual Exploitation! Now in the box placed to the immediate left of this personal / journals postings is a beautiful woman belly down in a tub of what appears to me milk.....feet, ass, back, shoulders, neck & head above the milky surface.....erotically sensual.......female flesh & milky white contrast nicely forming and caressing the thighs & ass cheeks caressing the anus and vaginal labia.......Is my description considered "Sexual Exploitation" or just a critical observation of a photographers efforts to create a situation that begs to be looked at in a fetishistic manner?
Fully agreed. It's more than just peoples intolerance though. The exploitation happens from both sides of the industry, with the improper and lewd conduct towards the models. Especially those models who are not professionals, and are new to it, and are not aware of ways to protect themselves.
LilTracyLynnFeatured By OwnerDec 6, 2011Hobbyist Traditional Artist
Your point doesn't make since. If a man or woman is willing to strip naked in front of a camera, then she or he should understand the consequences of what happens when their pictures stream out on the internet. It's not sexual exploitation if a grown man or woman chooses to do what they do. Unless they are being forced against their will to do something inappropriate, then it's not sexual exploitation.
To be honest, if I were a business owner and I found that one of my employees were doing porn or getting naked online for men to see, then yes, I would fire them because if people found out that I was hiring erotic models, then that would make my company look bad. Especially if my company was doing something besides erotica.
Also, not all erotic watchers are men. There are many women who watch male erotic nudes as well, mate.
I think that if the person used to be an erotic model but decided to clean up their act they shouldn't be fired for it? It would mean once you're in the business, that's the only way you can ever make money and that's sad. Imagine you went through a rough patch and that was the only thing that could make you any money? Your future plan is to become a doctor. Being an erotic model isn't illegal, it's not like committing a felony or having bad morals you know.
I am not sure if I fully understand.... I have nudes online, but only on sites like dA where you need an account to actually see them. I try to keep track of them as good as I can and so far, nothing has "leaked" to my university colleagues, family, etc. Also I am not "googleable" with my real name.
I know it is hypocritical to fire someone because you saw nude pictures of them online. But then again, if I wanna be a teacher there is no way in hell I should have any not fully dressed pics online. Like the teacher who got fired because of a fetish site she had. thatīs just stupid of her.
if you know this is something that can get you fired..then why post it up? Its just common sense really. How is it exploitation if they willingly put up content of themselves? Beyond that, having any type of explicit content of yourself up on the web is so that people can look and then move on when they are done using it for their own needs. Thats the reason why they do this, for the sexual attention. (as far as the ones who post it up willingly which is the vast majority)
To get fired over some pictures is a bit unfair, but then again there seems to be a growing trend with people where they want to make their private life public and still keep it private and not be subjugated to the consequences or ridicule of making that stuff public.
That is stupid, the notion to have private matters out in the open and then ask people to be nice about it is a naive concept. I believe that social sites like Facebook and Myspace are to blame to a certain extent. But for the most part, its due to a severe lack of common sense.
Because it is an instinctual need to not have your will oppressed by another being. Where as in the case of exploitation, the person has agreed to put themselves in a compromising spot with out thinking about what mite happen. As i have already explained in my previous comment.
Indeed. You must not be familiar with the concepts of "forced obedience", "influence abuse", and all that kind of stuff maybe too barbaric for you but witch are responsible of an other concept, "illegal contracts", witch are simply the fact that it is not because you signed something that you have to strictly apply to it. Exemple : if you sing a contract for slavery, it is declared illegal by law according to this barbaric concept, even if you had been slave since ten years when the contract is declared illegal.
The fact is, here, it is not because you could loose your job while doing something that the fact loosing your job is legal, or moral, or in the respect of your own rights of human being. It only means one thing : your boss decided it. Point.
That does not make the decision ethicly acceptable or legitimate.
The society and the society ALONE chose that, through laws and debates.
The rest, you make it up to suit your own convenience but it is what it is : a make up. A link between two things that are not linked.
"Common sense" ? Come on ... just think how dumb is the "average John Doe" (no offense for those who happen to actually have THIS name ) and now think that this is "average", meaning HALF of the people are dumber than this ! What a wonderful thought...
thats is true, most of the time it is rather unfair. But if you know its going to affect your job in any way and still do it then thats just being dumb. Like a school teacher posting up nude pics. If students found that then it would be a death sentence to their carrier. But if your working at a UPS or something were ur not super involved in the community then i really dont see the harm in posting what ever you want.
HappyHenryFeatured By OwnerApr 5, 2011Hobbyist Digital Artist
I strongly and fully AGREE! I wrote a paper on this to my church. It was not accepted. I changed churches to a church that is tolerant. Not everyone agrees and that is fine, but we must allow for differences. Difference is a powerful and wonderful thing in the study of nature itself. Not all trees, birds, clouds are the same in all ways. It is a wonderful public service message you have presented. Thank you very much for saying it in a way that, I think, many will hear, understand and at very least give reason for thought. Godspeed!!
I'm with you. It's not easy to understand how things are different even when it seems similar. But that is the point, even when we see the ultimate difference among the supposed equals, the message of truly hope and unselfish service to the great cause always applies to the ones who care about it. And we all know you are doing the right thing!